Rendered at 14:41:43 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
beloch 19 hours ago [-]
I remember hearing this quote from a HCI prof in the late 90's. I repeated this to a person who was in nursing, and they replied that helping babies figure out nipples (i.e. "latching") is actually a common problem for new mothers[1].
It's worth considering that survivor bias plays a role in the perceived intuitiveness of nipples.
came here to say the same :) if nipples would be intuitive there wouldn't be an entire business of lactation consultants
analog31 17 hours ago [-]
>>> lactation consultants...
In my experience, weekly trips to the lactation consultant had no effect except for a growing sense of shame.
lelandfe 16 hours ago [-]
I have a lactation consultant in the family. She herself, despite her job, was unable to get her first kid to latch. It was embarrassing, traumatizing. I had no idea.
gregw2 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah, this is one of those quotes that is cute/clever... until you have kids and learn or experience how common 'latching' problems are.
It's pretty distressing to watch the desperation and the struggle of a baby screaming and a mom trying but unable to feed her baby.
Then the quote sort of turns from clever into a sign of a bit of real-life ignorance.
stvltvs 19 hours ago [-]
There's a deeply ingrained mythos around how natural and easy motherhood is, but in nature, a lot of first time mothers are rather mediocre. It takes a while learn how to do all those "natural" things like nursing the baby.
And let's not forget that babies kinda suck (intended) at doing "natural" things too.
HeyLaughingBoy 17 hours ago [-]
> lot of first time mothers are rather mediocre
I had a hen who was sitting on a clutch of eggs this summer. Did everything right: kept them warm, turned them regularly, etc.
Then one hatched and she promptly lost interest in the rest, leaving them to die.
techjamie 9 hours ago [-]
Some years ago we had a goat that didn't recognize her new baby was her baby, and refused to care for it. We tried for some time to see if we could get her to hold still long enough for it to latch on, but every time it tried to eat she'd take off.
Unfortunately, since she wouldn't protect it, something seemingly snatched it up in the night and we didn't see it again. It was really depressing.
zbentley 14 hours ago [-]
I worked lambing/kidding season at a sheep and goat (wool) ranch for several years. It quickly disabused me of any notions that natural parenting processes are always or even mostly functional at the individual level.
Sure, selective breeding accounts for part of it, but so does the reality that evolution has tended to select (for many prey animals) for the ability to survive and reproduce a lot, not necessarily the ability to be a good parent.
OroPla 18 hours ago [-]
It used to be that people had between six and twelve children, so all children grew up among babies learning this crucial knowledge from their parents and younger siblings. They'd end up having children within a few years of moving out, too, so there was no forgetting about it, either.
analog31 17 hours ago [-]
In addition, a lot of first time mothers died, as did their babies.
talon8635 18 hours ago [-]
Yup. Horny teens can figure out their genitalia combo much easier than many infants figure out latching
NoMoreNicksLeft 17 hours ago [-]
I once read an account of an octogenarian woman in a nursing home. A new doctor was assigned to her. Looking over the medical records, she'd had chronic urinary infections her entire adult life, until her husband passed away. She had urinary incontinence her entire adult life. They never had any children, though not for lack of trying.
Turns out that her husband had been penetrating her urethra throughout their marriage. When the old woman was questioned about these medical issues by the doctors, she told him that though it had hurt the first time, she expected it to and never thought much of it. Nor had she connected the onset of incontinence and infections with the act.
So no, I don't think that this is necessarily true, either.
talon8635 11 hours ago [-]
Yeahhhhhh. Thanks for this right before I go to bed lol.
In any case, with billions of humans throughout history, I don’t doubt it’s possible. Crazier shit has happened. But it also rings like a tall tale of the medical field. But hey, I’m not saying it’s impossible.
What's "intuitive" really just boils down to "what you're used to".
An intuitive user interface is one that leverages patterns the user has already internalized. That's why there is no single user interface that is intuitive for everybody.
waterheater 19 hours ago [-]
As a dad, I think nipple detection is hardwired, but latching might take some work. Two additional considerations are user interface scaling and whether or not the backend is online.
Breast Tech (Boob Tech? Breast-Computer Interface?) is amazing. We now have wireless, heated, smart breast pumps (https://www.eufy.com/collections/breast-pump), which women from days of yore (aka 25 years ago) could have only dreamed.
tezza 17 hours ago [-]
Baby can be ALLERGIC to the mother’s breast milk
Baby can have unfixable latching problems (as commented elsewhere)
Breasts may not produce enough milk even with pumping
Nipples and Breasts can get infected and seriously endanger the mother
snarky-comments 19 hours ago [-]
This might nicely augment the usual keyboard + mouse UI.
motionlessveloc 18 hours ago [-]
The IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad has featured a "nipple" for ages. It responds better to manual stimulation than sucking though.
> It responds better to manual stimulation than sucking though.
Apparently the intended use is not as intuitive as the engineers had hoped.
makeitdouble 14 hours ago [-]
At first encounter as a grad student borrowing a friend's computer, I pushed the bright red button, and couldn't see anything happening. Pushed it a bit stronger, though the wobbling was manufacturing sloppiness.
Intended use is really not intuitive.
mcphage 19 hours ago [-]
This was something that I believed until I had kids. It turns out, even the nipple isn't fully intuitive—some babies struggle to breastfeed, and have to be taught how to do it properly.
copperx 19 hours ago [-]
But for some, it is.
JohnFen 19 hours ago [-]
Babies have a reflex (not even an instinct) to do it, but that reflex only works well if conditions are pretty close to ideal. Outside of the sweet spot, there can be all sorts of difficulties. That's the nature of reflexes.
Using a nipple isn't really intuitive. It's learned.
copperx 18 hours ago [-]
Interesting. Nothing is is intuitive then! I wonder whether reproduction is.
JohnFen 17 hours ago [-]
We get dangerously close to a semantic difference here, but this is how I learned the categories generally work. This is not my field, so I could be wrong, of course.
Generally, you can break things down to three categories.
There are reflexes, which are when your body reacts to something without your brain needing to be involved. The latching reflex in babies, for example, or the patellar reflex (tapping the knee to make the leg jerk).
Then there are instincts. Instincts involve the brain, and so generally don't appear in human infants immediately. Instincts are like pre-written scripts encoded in us, but require a level of development before those scripts can be executed.
Then there are learned behaviors. Things that are "intuitive" fall into this category. Something is intuitive if a behavior you already know well can be applied the activity.
Reproduction is instinctive (and it's an instinct that, in humans, doesn't really show up until much closer to sexual maturity). It's not intuitive. If you've never been exposed to or taught how to have sex, you'll still feel the desire and be able to do it. Maybe not well, but you can get the job done.
19 hours ago [-]
tzs 14 hours ago [-]
Intuitive does not necessarily mean easy to use.
joshdavham 18 hours ago [-]
But what about male nipples?
deadbabe 19 hours ago [-]
It is definitely not the only intuitive interface if you’re talking about bodies.
gdubicki 19 hours ago [-]
So, also the TrackPoint.
userbinator 17 hours ago [-]
That's what I thought the article would be about from the title alone.
Many mothers and their children don't find it so intuitive at first. There are lactation consultants who teach mothers (and indirectly the children) what to do.
sublinear 19 hours ago [-]
What's considered intuitive isn't intrinsic to the design. It's always relative to the previous preferred design, and there is no known base case to anchor onto.
The nipple comes well after lots of crying and grasping for other things, but why would first experiences have anything to do with best experiences anyway?
I think most designers are deeply aware of this already, so why do we keep talking about design this way?
animitronix 18 hours ago [-]
Eh, there's a difference between intuitive and instinctive
It's worth considering that survivor bias plays a role in the perceived intuitiveness of nipples.
___________
[1]https://breastfeeding.support/when-baby-wont-breastfeed/
In my experience, weekly trips to the lactation consultant had no effect except for a growing sense of shame.
It's pretty distressing to watch the desperation and the struggle of a baby screaming and a mom trying but unable to feed her baby.
Then the quote sort of turns from clever into a sign of a bit of real-life ignorance.
And let's not forget that babies kinda suck (intended) at doing "natural" things too.
I had a hen who was sitting on a clutch of eggs this summer. Did everything right: kept them warm, turned them regularly, etc.
Then one hatched and she promptly lost interest in the rest, leaving them to die.
Unfortunately, since she wouldn't protect it, something seemingly snatched it up in the night and we didn't see it again. It was really depressing.
Sure, selective breeding accounts for part of it, but so does the reality that evolution has tended to select (for many prey animals) for the ability to survive and reproduce a lot, not necessarily the ability to be a good parent.
Turns out that her husband had been penetrating her urethra throughout their marriage. When the old woman was questioned about these medical issues by the doctors, she told him that though it had hurt the first time, she expected it to and never thought much of it. Nor had she connected the onset of incontinence and infections with the act.
So no, I don't think that this is necessarily true, either.
In any case, with billions of humans throughout history, I don’t doubt it’s possible. Crazier shit has happened. But it also rings like a tall tale of the medical field. But hey, I’m not saying it’s impossible.
In any case, it’s obviously not the norm lol
Is it true that “the only ”intuitive“ interface is the nipple”? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4412372 - Aug 2012 (23 comments)
An intuitive user interface is one that leverages patterns the user has already internalized. That's why there is no single user interface that is intuitive for everybody.
Breast Tech (Boob Tech? Breast-Computer Interface?) is amazing. We now have wireless, heated, smart breast pumps (https://www.eufy.com/collections/breast-pump), which women from days of yore (aka 25 years ago) could have only dreamed.
Baby can have unfixable latching problems (as commented elsewhere)
Breasts may not produce enough milk even with pumping
Nipples and Breasts can get infected and seriously endanger the mother
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick
Apparently the intended use is not as intuitive as the engineers had hoped.
Intended use is really not intuitive.
Using a nipple isn't really intuitive. It's learned.
Generally, you can break things down to three categories.
There are reflexes, which are when your body reacts to something without your brain needing to be involved. The latching reflex in babies, for example, or the patellar reflex (tapping the knee to make the leg jerk).
Then there are instincts. Instincts involve the brain, and so generally don't appear in human infants immediately. Instincts are like pre-written scripts encoded in us, but require a level of development before those scripts can be executed.
Then there are learned behaviors. Things that are "intuitive" fall into this category. Something is intuitive if a behavior you already know well can be applied the activity.
Reproduction is instinctive (and it's an instinct that, in humans, doesn't really show up until much closer to sexual maturity). It's not intuitive. If you've never been exposed to or taught how to have sex, you'll still feel the desire and be able to do it. Maybe not well, but you can get the job done.
(Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/243/ )
The nipple comes well after lots of crying and grasping for other things, but why would first experiences have anything to do with best experiences anyway?
I think most designers are deeply aware of this already, so why do we keep talking about design this way?